Minutemen in Herndon
Saw this in the Post the other day and was wondering what other Schmoliticians thought about this issue. Apparently a chapter of the Minuteman Project (a private group most famous for its patrols of the US/Mexico border and dedicated to haulting illegal immigration into this country) has sprung up in Herndon, VA where they have recently begun photographing and tracking day-laborers and the companies that hire them. They plan to turn over the information they gather to the IRS in an attempt to discourage companies from hiring day-laborers. Their ultimate goal is to move these folks out of Herndon. (This is presupposing, of course, that the day-laborers are all undocumented persons.) This issue is already a hot-button topic in Herndon where the city council recently voted to use taxpayer money to build a central gathering site for workers and employers in the hopes of creating a more formal process for the hiring of day laborers that would protect both workers and employers. Some have argued that such policies only encourage people to come here illegally. However, I would argue that irregardless of whether people have come to this country legally or illegally, they are here now and we have to deal with them. They are also still human beings, entitled to the same dignity and rights as any other person. Their immigration status does nothing to change that fact.
Here's a question for you, though. Why not create an "open border" policy and let whoever wants to come here, come here? Register them, give them a social security number, and get them started paying taxes and contributing to the economy. I understand there are security implications to consider but I'm sure it could be handled. Then, we wouldn't need to worry about undocumented persons serving as a drain on social services, etc. They'd be paying back into the system just like everyone else. What say you?
posted by ze roberto @ 11/09/2005 10:19:00 AM
5 comments
5 Comments:
I could not agree more, Harris. Illegals are here because of a simple supply-and-demand equation. They do the jobs that Americans consider beneath them, hence there will be demand for them. If there wasn't, they would not be here. Think about it: currently, there exists a situation where Mexicans can come to the US, and provided they are willing to work hard and in many cases, be treated as an animal, they are all but guaranteed to make money. Enough to live on, usually enough to send back to Mexico for their family that remained there.
Does this sound familiar to anyone? It should if you are of Irish descent. The only difference is, when my great-grandfather came over, there were no such things as illegal immigrants. Remember the whole "give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" thing inscribed on the Statue of Liberty? That worked out pretty well for my great-granddad. His father worked as little better than a slave on the railroads, but he still made enough money to provide for his family of six (a small Catholic family, but remember, the infant mortality rate was pretty high in Potato Famine-era Ireland), send money back to his relatives in Ireland, and more importantly, start a new life in the world's greatest democracy.
How then, is this any different from the plight of modern-day Mexicans. There is the promise of a better life in the US. What is wrong with chasing that dream?
If immigration were legalised, that would make things safer. No more coyotes running truckloads of illegals over the borders in the dead of night packed in so tight that some suffocate. No more selling your children into slavery in Mexico to pay for the cost of an illegal border crossing. No more letting the white man pay the brown man less than minimum wage. Just like pot, we should legalise it and regulate it.
Harris, you are completely correct about the benefits to this system if we get the illegals paying into instead of just taking from it (here I am referring strictly to the black-and-red; I realise that illegals do contribute to the system in other ways).
Americans should be proud that people from all over the world want to become citizens of our country. That is what made us a great nation to begin with. What we need to do, however, is ensure that the melting pot aspect of American culture remains intact. The danger of increased immigration is that you get these clusters of foreigners who are not being assimilated into America as a whole. Who are not learning English.
I am a firm believer that people who choose to live in a foreign country, immigrate there, whatever, must learn the language. I speak from experience. In America, not speaking English is a drawback, especially for the children of immigrants. Spanish language instruction in public schools is, in my opinion, not a good thing. If we allow children to make it through compulsary schooling without necessarily knowing English well, how many opportunities will they find for work after school? The same as their Spanish-speaking parents: manual labour or fast food.
And I have ranted on for quite long enough. Sorry for the disjointed nature of this comment. I suppose all I really needed to say was, I agree with Harris's proposal.
Word.
While I am good and fired up, let me express my outrage at the "Minutemen". What a perversion of history to choose such a name for your vigilante organisation! Calling yourselves that, anyone who disagrees with your vigilante-ass tactics is not much of a patriot, is he.
I am all for private citizens helping out law enforcement. Neighbourhood watches and such have undoubtable made us all safer.
But the Minutemen are doing nothing more than selectively targetting a group of individuals for bigoted reasons. If they want to document drug dealers prone to violence and turn that over to the Feddy Gov, more power to them. Or if they want to go all Crackers, The Corporate Crime Chicken and expose the criminals sucking millions of dollars out of our pockets from their corner fucking offices, go for it!
But why pick on illegals, who are here to make a better life for themselves, and really are not causing problems to speak of. They sure as hell are not "stealing American jobs" in any real sense.
Outragedly yours,
Josh
Damn dude, you is all kinds of fired up about that sh*t!! I tend to like this "open door" or "open border" policy, but it begs the question, "how 'big' (population-wise) is too 'big'"? At some point, even if America is still the envy and dream of much of the world, we can't sustain additional population growth, especially if that growth is a) at the low end of the socio-economic strata (contribute comparatively little taxes, take out comparatively high level of services) and b) non-English speaking and c) contributing to a further concentration in urban areas. If there is a Mexican diaspora, so be it, but I'm not convinced we -- the United States -- should serve as the de facto collection plate. Know what I mean?
@Minutemen: Bah. Whatever. Bunch of fat, conservative, frustrated white guys that can't shoot guns in Fairfax County. Publicity is what those assholes want -- I say don't give it to 'em.
Josh, "you're my Huckleberry."
Just to address a couple of your concerns, Sean.
First, "how big is too big?" I think Josh made an excellent point with respect to the supply/demand of labor. Right now, our economy can support additional immigration because there continues to be a demand for the kind of work new immigrants tend to take on. (An interesting point to consider here: a lot of undocumented persons come here, make money, and send it right out of the country to support their familes in their home countries. So there's no benefit to our economy. If they were registered citizens, some of that money would stay here.) I would think, though, that the market would determine how much is too much. When the demand for labor decreases, then people would stop coming here because there would be few jobs and little opportunity.
Secondly, I don't think the majority of new immigrants would stay at the bottom of the SAS scale for long. As Josh mentioned, in the 19th C., it was the Irish and Italians who were the lowest of the low. They took the shit jobs. But, a couple of generations later, they have pulled themselves up and become a solid segment of the working, middle, and upper classes. I expect the same would happen if, say, we experience an influx of South or Central Americans.
As for adding to further concentration in Urban areas, I think there are already examples of immigrants moving out into suburban and rural communities. History has shown that new immigrants do tend to *start* in urban areas, but once established, they begin moving out just as other immigrant groups have done before them. There was a huge Latino community in Manassas, for example. And, I understand that North Carolina has several rich and vibrant East African communities.
People like the Minutemen make me sick, frankly. We forget that we were all immigrants at one point or another. My mom still talks about how when her family came over from Ireland, there were signs in many stores that said "No dogs, blacks, or Irish." These groups are driven by ignorance and fear--a fear of the unknown, fear of people who are not like them, fear of change, and maybe even a fear that immigrants may come here and do a better job than their fat, lazy asses.
Lastly, I wonder if accepting new immigrants as citizens and welcoming them into our country with respect would not also ease some of the problems caused by social isolation, stigmatization, and ostracization. I'm thinking of the MS-13 gangs that are becoming such a problem up and down the East Coast. I believe these gangs have formed because their members have been made to feel like outcasts and second class citizens and they are looking for some sense of community and acceptance.
This is the first I have heard of the MS-13s. Google gave up the goods, and I am now shuddering.
This is a classic vicious cycle: White America makes minorities feel worthless, minorities join gangs to feel like they have some control over their own destiny, which makes White America hate and fear them more... and so on, ad naseum. Both Harris and Emily are completely right, the facts that they feel like second-class citizens and that they are sending the wrong message to the world are not mutually exclusive in any way. Watch "The Shield" if you want to see this theory illustrated (plus, it is a damned entertaining show).
And Sean, about the Mexican diaspora, I welcome it, as long as assimilation and dissemination both occur. By way of an example, consider once again poor Irish and Italian immigrants. They became Americans, no doubt, but at the same time, flavoured American culture with their own rich traditions. That is why we have great pubs in New York and Boston, and great organised crime shows on HBO (OK, I am joking now, but you do understand what I mean, right?).
If the same thing happens with the wave of Mexican immigrants, all the better! I would love for every American to appreciate the flavour of a qesodillo and live and die for the futbol! American culture is about a little bit of everything, so let's add some Latino flava' to tha' mix. Shiiit.
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